For those who may not know about the story: Mancow Muller, a conservative talk show host in Chicago, submitted himself to waterboarding with the intent to prove that it isn’t torture (see below). After this experience of enhanced interrogation administered by Retired Marine Sgt. Klay South, Mancow concluded that waterboarding was indeed, torture.
But in the end, whatever Mancow’s intent or conclusion – he actually proved that waterboarding ISN’T torture. Why? Think about it. Would Mancow submit himself to this procedure if there was any chance that his body would be permanently damaged? What if he knew that after the experience he would only have one eye, 8 fingers, his back beaten by bamboo, his toes smashed by a hammer, select parts of his body electrocuted, or punched repeatedly until his nose was fixed on a different part of his face?
Would Marine Sgt. Klay South waterboard Mancow if he knew he was going to hurt the guy? When the CIA used waterboarding (with only three terrorists), a doctor was always required to be present. If it is torture, where was the doctor?
Why wasn’t he arrested for “torturing” him?
We know the answer to all the questions above.
Mancow was freaked out and shaken up by the process, but enhanced interrogation isn’t intended to be a walk in the park. He isn’t a hardened Islamic terrorist dedicated to killing innocent Jews and Christians. Mancow walks away with all his fingers and toes, and his face will remain the same. He’ll have some bad memories, but I still have some bad memories of Michael Moore and Lanny Davis. We’ll get over it.
Let us remember that only three terrorists went through this process. This happened right after 9/11, when we found ourselves vulnerable after that fateful day. Why only three? They were determined to have pertinent information of future terrorist attacks.
The Bush administration relied on constitutional lawyers in it’s determination of the legality of waterboarding, and it was deemed legal. Legality is determined that the intent of the procedure is not to permanently harm an individual, whether physically or psychologically. Let’s also remember that waterboarding has been included in the training of our Navy Seals and other military personnel.
Attorney General Eric Holder failed to prove waterboarding is torture in his testimony to congress, which the MSM failed to report. See On ‘Torture,’ Holder Undoes Holder.
There is something that I failed to mention: thousands of lives were saved because of waterboarding three terrorists. Isn’t it interesting that of all the CIA top secret documents released by President Obama, he refused to release the very documents that proves this point?
I wonder why.
UPDATE! 6/5
Oh my: House GOP claims new intel hearing confirms that enhanced interrogation works – Hot Air
UPDATE! 5/29
Mancow responds that waterboarding experience is not a hoax. Bored Bloggers Are All Wet
UPDATE! 5/29
Mancow and his waterboarding experience could be a publicity stunt!
Lefty blogs punked by Mancow “torture” stunt(?) By Michelle Malkin
More articles
Ramirez: The new waterboarding by Ed Morrissey
An Afterthought on Torture by David P. Goldman
So You Want to Be Tortured? by Leigh Scott
Poll: Americans oppose closing Gitmo 2-1, relocating detainees to US 3-1 – by Ed Morrissey
Olby to Mancow: You’re sure this waterboarding was legit, right? – Hot Air
Breaking: Feds subpoena Visclosky’s records in PMA probe – by Ed Morrissey
Why is the Obama Justice Department protecting New Black Panthers? By Michelle Malkin
Olby to Mancow: Tell me how awful waterboarding is – Hot Air
Daily Gut: The Travesty of Truces by Greg Gutfeld
The time for O’s mettle test is here: North Korea prepares for war By Michelle Malkin
Political Late Night Winners and Losers by Tim Slagle
Filed under: CIA interrogations | Tagged: Michael Moore, waterboarding, Mancow Muller, WLS-AM, Mancow & Cassidy show, Sgt. Klay South, Lanny Davis
How as a christian can you think waterboarding is not torture? This is something that should be condemned. I don’t even think you have actually thought this through. What happened to do onto others as you would have done unto you? This really makes me doubt religion even more if this is their believes on waterboarding and torture. You have not even shown one reason you think this is an okay approach to interrogating terrorists or would be terrorists.
What in the world would you suggest? So aking a terrorist uncomfortable is worse than killing thousands of Americans? The sad thing is, all you America hating libs actually answer yes to that question. Until it hits home, it’s just a fuzzy feel good group think and I hope your bubble is never busted.
I didn’t say it was worse. But you should have respect for human life. There are other means than torture. Nothing can be said to convince me otherwise. IT IS TORTURE TO MAKE A PERSON FEAR FOR THEIR LIVES THINKING THEY ARE DROWNING. Also I am not an American hating liberal. My dad is very conservative and my political viewpoints are a mix between the two. I voted McCain in the last election and he is Republican. SO do not judge me if you do not know anything about me. I know plenty of conservative Republicans who agree this is torture.
Hey Andrea!
Please read the blog again. I am not for torture. The issue is whether waterboarding is torture. Even Eric Holder couldn’t prove it before congress.
Please remember that 1,000’s of lives where saved because of this type of interrogation. We must care about 1,000’s of innocent men. women and children – shouldn’t we? Would you have preferred that they die?
Also, please remember that it was only used on three terrorists right after 9/11, when we were at our greatest vulnerability.
It makes me doubt folks and their compassion if they prefer 1,000’s of people die instead.
How can waterboarding not be considered torture? There is a chance of permanent damage. There can be brain damage from lack of oxygen, or even psychological damage present. These prisoners are not just waterboarded they are sleep deprieved and have other forms of mis-treatment done to them. Take a step back as a christian and decide if Jesus wants us to treat a fellow human being this way. I still am astounded a christian can think it is ok to waterboard. This is most definately a form of torture.
Hey Andrea!
I am not for torture. Remember that the point is legality. Torture under the law is the determination of the intent of permanent physical or psychological damage.
As I understand, the duration of waterboarding is less than 30 seconds. Mancow lasted 6 seconds, most folks can only go 14 seconds. As a teenager I could hold my breath for 2 1/2 minutes. The issue is not the duration of the lack of oxygen, the issue is the sense of drowning.
Mancow was scared stinkless, but he is alive and well.
As for psychological damage, remember legality deals with permanent psychological damage. We all have gone through terrifying or stressful situations, such as the families who lost loved ones on 9/11.
What would you do: go through waterboarding for 14 seconds or lose a loved one on 9/11?
Please remember:
1) Navy Seals and other military personnel have had waterboarding as a part of their training.
2) Attorney General Eric Holder could not prove that waterboarding is torture before Congress. See, On ‘Torture,’ Holder Undoes Holder.
3) Thousands of lives were saved.
4) Only three terrorists experienced waterboarding. It was the decision of the Bush administration to discontinue it’s use.
As a Christian, I have the sense of protecting the weak and the helpless from those who are ruthless and dangerous – under the law. It was determined as legal.
If you want to pursue the issue of torture, start with the Obama administration and rendition.
Andrea what are you talking about? First of all Jim DEMONSTRATED how waterboarding can’t be torture if torture is (as it is legally stated) the intent to cause permanent harm? Since waterboarding doesn’t cause permanent harm, it can’t be torture. Also how does making a TERRORIST feel uncomfortable, treating them harshly, pressuring them, and SIMULATING the FEELING of drowning for them the same thing AS ACTUALLY drowning them or causing any permanent harm? Can’t wait to hear the follow up to how you’d prefer a terrorist to murder thousands of people than make them uncomfortable.
Why don’t you try it and let us know what you think.
Make sure you videotape it and have trained military personel performing the water-boarding. Then get back to us.
Mancow didn’t believe it was torture either – before he experienced it.
Michael Kontras
Hey Michael!
The legality of waterboarding is not determined by Mancow’s experience or his opinion – it is determined by law.
Say for instance if Mancow and Mike Tyson ( in his prime) decided on a boxing match. It’s supposed to go 12 rounds. How long do you suppose little radio jock Mancow would last? How many punches would it take for the little guy to go down?
I think it would take one. But what if Tyson got three or four of his best punches into his face – what would Mancow look like? What if the match went several rounds?
If Tyson permanently damaged Mancow’s face or brain – would this be torture under the law? Is Tyson liable for charges? You and I know that the answer is no.
Men beat each other’s heads in a boxing match and some have actually died – and all is legal.
Let me ask you – what choice would Mancow make: waterboarding or 12 rounds with Mike Tyson?
Remember that 1,000’s of lives were saved, and that waterboarding was used for only three terrorists that were aware of a plot to kill innocent men, women and children.
It is my Opinion that we need to “torture the H#LL” out of terrorist or war (criminals) in anyway necessary to get information out of them, to save lives. Look what they do to our people! Please everybody – wake up!
Thanks~Renie
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Mancow was a weenie who couldn’t hold his breath MORE THAN SIX SECONDS! JB is right, this is nowhere near torture.
After all the blogs I have read from you that teach peace and love and now your preaching about toucher people. Your a hypocrite.
Hey Anonymous!
Please read the blog again. My argument is that waterboarding is not torture.
As a person who cares for peace and love, I rejoice that 1,000’s of men, women and children are still alive and were saved from tragedy.
And that three Islamic terrorists did not lose any eyes, fingers, and toes; they were not electrocuted and beaten to a pulp; and they still have their heads.
Waterboarding is distasteful. Then again, war is distasteful, and the things you must do in order to win a war are distasteful. I wouldn’t want to be waterboarded and am not about to volunteer to have it done just to prove a point. I also wouldn’t want to be held in prison, interrogated, or strip searched. But I’d rather have any of these things done to me, waterboarding included, than to be shot in the head. Yet somehow, in war, it’s okay to shoot the enemy, but not to terrify him? I don’t understand this logic. No-one has convinced me that waterboarding harms the victim in any way except psychologically.
I’m sure that everyone who thinks Obama did the right thing by authorizing the killing of those Somali pirates is lining up to be shot in the head. If it’s such an effective technique for saving American lives, why don’t YOU try it?
Why don’t they quit being pirates? They Bargained with them and everything else.
…and I am not real fond at all of obama.
From Webster’s New World Dictionary: Torture
Pronunciation: \ˈtȯr-chər\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Old French, from Late Latin tortura, from Latin tortus, past participle of torquēre to twist; probably akin to Old High German drāhsil turner, Greek atraktos spindle.
Date: 1540
1 a: anguish of body or mind : agony
b: something that causes agony or pain
2: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
===============
What part of this definition does water-boarding NOT fit?
Hey Dutchman!
I am sorry, but the issue is legality under the law – not a definition pulled from a dictionary.
That definition could apply to every time I went for a 5 mile run.
So Blazsik, I guess you don’t realize that Americans concluded that waterboarding was torture when it was used against our troops in WWII? In fact we put Japanese soldiers to death in part because they used this method of torture on our boys in order to save themselves from a possible nuclear bomb. If it was torture then it is torture now and there is absolutely NO PROOF of any kind that any lives were saved by using this method no matter what that criminal Cheney says.
Hey Ron!
Could you please provide documentation to prove your assertion that “we put Japanese soldiers to death in part because they used this method of torture?”
I’ve done the research – I can’t find verifying evidence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes Read the parole for war criminal movement part towards the bottom of the article. America would not stand for another country torturing or even preforming waterboarding on american citizens so why should we be allowed to do it.
Exactly. I agree one hundred percent.
Mancow believed as you did except he had the courage to put his words to the test. Until you do your opinion is irrelevant. You might as well rebut a soldier by saying “War isn’t that scary.”
Hey Jeff!
Mancow’s opinion is irrelevant. The issue is legality under the law.
I am not aware of any soldier who didn’t think war was scary.
ANYONE WHO IS FOR ANY FORM OF TORTURE IS NOT A TRUE CHRISTIAN IN MY OPINION. SORRY BUT THAT’S NOT WHAT JESUS WOULD DO, AND NEITHER SHOULD WE. END OF STORY. PERIOD.
Hey Mark!
Well, at least it’s not up to you to decide who is a Christian or not.
Please read the blog – torture (of which I am against) isn’t the issue here, it’s that waterboarding isn’t torture. Attorney General Eric Holder failed to prove it is torture before congress.
Remember, waterboarding saved thousands of lives and the three Islamic terrorists committed to kill more innocent Jews and Christians that went through this process – are alive and well.
People don’t read, listen, or understand..
Jim Treacher, if your comment was addressed to me, I don’t understand your point. If your comment was not addressed to me, I still don’t understand your point. Please clarify.
Torture is just a word. I don’t care whether waterboarding is torture or not. I’m only interested in its effects. If it works and does no physical harm, then use it. If it’s not effective, don’t use it.
The argument that it angers the enemy doesn’t wash with me. Kind of like closing Gitmo and moving the prisioners somewhere else. They (the enemy) hate us anyway, they’ll just come up with a different prison and different technique to get angry about.
On second or third reading of Treacher’s comment, I think I understand what you mean, and I agree. Submission to a technique should not be required of everyone who approves of its use. Is that what you meant?
Random thoughts as I was reading the recent comments…
Mark, Jesus probably wouldn’t have taken up the sword either, but we know at least one of the disciples carried one. Jesus didn’t make Peter throw away his sword.
I don’t recall Jesus condemning crucifixion. Is it okay if we crucify criminals? No? Is any form of punishment acceptable then? Where do you draw the line? Jesus said “Turn the other cheek.” Does this mean we should just ignore criminal behavior and not punish them at all?
What is and is not torture is subjective. What is torture for one person may not be torture for everyone. People can be (and are) trained to resist waterboarding.
Never mind me, I’m rambling.
Funny in Revelations Jesus takes up a sword, so what do you do with that? In Romans 13 God/Jesus, says the government has the God given preogative to take up the rod of punishment against evil doers. Paul takes a Roman guard to protect him from terrorists who seek to take his life. Jesus tells the apostles to take up a sword at one point…the common theme is for self defense..so if these unpleasant techniques to extract information in order to defend the lives of thousands of people is not Biblical..what do you suggest that we line up to get bombed by terrorists?
Jesus is often portrayed as a manifestation of God’s love, but you’re quite right, his second coming will be one of judgment. “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s.” Some powers are given to government – the power to tax, make war, etc. Unless we are willing to just surrender without a fight, we must be prepared to do some unpleasant things.
Until someone can show me that waterboarding doesn’t work or causes permanent damage, I see no reason to take it out of our toolbox of unpleasant things we sometimes have to do.
Gods attributes are co relative..they should be hyphenated as loving-justice, or just-love, as God is not JUST love but He is also justice and truth and reason and goodness etc. I agree with you, for some reason I read what you said as in disagreement with waterboarding. Not sleeping for several days might explain that haha. My bad.
That’s okay, I didn’t express myself very well. I was aware of it at the time, but hit “Submit” anyway. I was tired too.
If your point is that the only way to win a war of imperialism is by torture and genocide, then I agree with you 100%.
Of course, Christian morality does not allow for torture, genocide, or imperialism.
Hey Dutchman!
Man! Talk about creating a straw man – a technique used by folks with weak or losing arguments.
The issue isn’t imperialism. The issue is 1,000s of lives saved from Islamic terrorists on our homeland.
If the issue is of legality, then why did we prosecute Japanese and others for waterboarding? The answer is because it was torture then, and it is torture now, and all along it has been illegal.
The greater question is, Is waterboarding an American ideal? The answer to this one is no. I believe that America is bound to a higher order than our enemies, and this illegal practice is immoral as well.
The notion that this has saved 1,000’s of lives is a notion put forth by our ex-vice president whom I completely distrust, as should you. Cheney has manipulated and gamed the system and all of us to get us into Iraq under false pretenses. There were no WMD, and if we would have taken some more time we would have found that out without firing a shot.
Waterboarding is toture. We have prosecuted people for this crime. It’s against the law in the US, and against the laws of the international treaties we have signed. Your argument holds no water.
Hey Paul!
1) Could you please provide documentation that we prosecuted Japanese and others for waterboarding?
2) Just because you have a hang up about Cheney, it doesn’t mean that others do. As to the 1,000’s saved, Cheney is not the only one saying it. He has requested certain documents to be released: Barack should give the authorization to release them.
3) Democrats also claimed that there were WMDs in Iraq: Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, John Edwards, Tom Dashelle, and Bill Clinton. So we shouldn’t trust them either?
4) As to torture: you are only expressing your opinion. The issue is legality: torture is the intent of permanent physical or psychological damage. Attorney General Eric Holder failed to prove that waterboarding is torture in his testimony before Congress. See, See On ‘Torture,’ Holder Undoes Holder.
5) As for American ideals – I agree. The three terrorists who were waterboarded still have all their eyes, fingers and toes. They were not beaten or electrocuted. And they still have their heads.
check something out expert– Google— 2007 to 2008 yellowcake sold by Iraq and shipped to Canada– yes libs wmd were in Iraq as well as al quaeda. some 2400 metric tons were kept secret by us forces in Iraq until the situation was stable enough so it could be transported out of there. BTW 2400 mt equals 5,280,000 pounds of the stuff. Now look up yellowcake and see what is a product of/for.
Wow. Richard Armitage, John McCain, and Malcom Nance have all said waterboarding is torture. Since two of those men experienced it and one ran the SERE school that trained our troops to expect it from torturing regimes – I’m gonna vote them right and you wrong. You’re free to disagree but, you just make yourself look dumb.
Hey Mark!
Everyone, including the three men above are to be respected for their opinions. And I respect Sen. McCain’s opinion – who served our country under dire circumstances. (While Obama never served in the military).
I do not believe in torture. Again, the procedure was deemed legal by constitutional lawyers because torture under the law is defined by intent of exacting permanent physical or psychological harm. Waterboarding doesn’t fall under this definition.
And again, Attorney General Eric Holder in his testimony to congress failed to prove this procedure is torture.
Mancow is alive and well. It is important to note that the two you mentioned who experienced waterboarding (as also the three terrorists) still have all their fingers, toes, and head. They weren’t beaten or electrocuted, or had their fingernails torn out.
Remember, that waterboarding was used as part of the training of our Navy Seals and other military personnel.
Whether you want to use the sixth grade playground vocabulary such as “dumb,” I think it is pretty smart (and compassionate) to save 1,000s of lives.
Hello Jim,
You say:
There is something that I failed to mention: thousands of lives were saved because of waterboarding three terrorists. Isn’t it interesting that of all the CIA top secret documents released by President Obama, he refused to release the very documents that proves this point?
Please tellme how exactly you have proved this point without the said documents that
Obama has not released. You state as fact something that a known repeated liar Dick Cheny has stated. Again, if Obama has noit released the proof, where is the proof that you are making this statement on.
Thank you.
Hey Jam!
The issue is that the Obama administration has refused to release specific documents requested by Cheney that proves 1,000s of lives were saved.
This refusal proves that Cheney’s assertion is true.
Please leave the Cheney is a liar thing where it belongs – in the garbage.
[...] Mancow Prove Waterboarding Is Not Torture? Read article written by Jim Blazsik. In it, he writes about radio host Mancow and his waterboarding session live [...]
Essentially what the anti-waterboarding crowd is saying is that they don’t give a lick about innocent lives. Sorry, but I am not willing to offer my beautiful wife and three daughters as a sacrifice so you can walk around congratulating yourselves for keeping your sensibilities intact, while I spend the rest of my life mourning the senseless loss of my loved ones. A loss that could have been prevented if we had only poured some water on the faces of these barbarians.
It is mind-boggling how blase the left is about human life, except when it serves their agenda, and even then they always come down on the wrong side of the issue.
Amen the Hawk..its like Gandalf asking Sauromon when he abandoned reason for madness. It’s incredible and we will all pay the price of electing a liberal socialistic and probable usurper who most likely isn’t even a natural born citizen to the Presidency. Funny how liberals have such a lack of respect for human life yet they see their own life as too valuable to be willing to sacrifice. I’m currently talking to someone who believes in population control yet he doesn’t seem willling to put himself on the front lines in order to reduce the population..why is that?
You make a good point, Mr. Blazsik.
I’ll also say the following: Torture to me was watching innocent citizens being forced to jump to their deaths from the top of a burning skyscraper.
Should I really care if the perpetrators of that event had some water poured down their throats and felt momentarily as if they were going to die? Honestly, I have a hard time mustering sympathy for anyone who could send planes crashing into tall buildings filled with people. Fact is, these scoundrels are still alive after enduring waterboarding. The same cannot be said for the victims of their acts.
And if the addage: “Do unto others what you would have them do unto you,” applies here, does it not also apply to the terrorists?
Further, what good could those sympathizers for the terrorists possibly wish their fellow citizens if they are unwilling to lift a hand to defend or protect them? How are such sympathizers applying the ‘golden rule?’ They are not.
I wish people like Ron and Andrea Burch would reflect on these things before crying foul. What they are really telling us is that the terrorists can act with impunity, and that their innocent fellow citizens must stand by and endure heinous acts merely as helpless victims.
hmm you requested others to supply docs to prove their claims about the americans torturing the japs but yet you don’t need any docs to prove that it saved thousands of lives…
If a WWII vet goes on tv and make an assertion that we did torture the japs but he does not have a docs to back it up, i’m sure you will be questioning his statement, but when someone who support your point of view then its all good.
Also, your logic of the refusal proving Cheeney is flaw because it assume that obama have not released the docs because he fears of some political pts being scored by cheeney (we are no where near an election). Obama only fears of political pts rather than national security (something the bush admin was very good at articulating in the media)
I think your whole argument relies on the legal definition of being torture is lame, just because something is legal it does not means its morally right to do it (think of the financial crisis, it might be legal for alot of the exes to do what they did but is it morally right) To loose a part of your body or be severely disfigured or whatever is not torture, its beyond that. No one in their right mind would sanction the kind of “torture” you are referring to, well not in this century, maybe 10th century.
Would Mancow submit himself to this procedure if there was any chance that his body would be permanently damaged? – hrrr nobody would! He subjected to it because he is like you, thinking that this is nothing but a walk in the park.
Would Marine Sgt. Klay South waterboard Mancow if he knew he was going to hurt the guy? When the CIA used waterboarding (with only three terrorists), a doctor was always required to be present. If it is torture, where was the doctor? – Very lame argument, when the CIA does it, i’m sure it lasted a lot longer than the 6-7 secs that he lasted for, not to mention that he can stop it anytime he wants, i doubt the “terrorist” have that choice.
Why wasn’t he arrested for “torturing” him? – i don’t know maybe because it was an experiment and consensual.
He’ll have some bad memories, but I still have some bad memories of Michael Moore and Lanny Davis. We’ll get over it. – perhaps you should subject yourself to waterboarding before you can compare your bad memory to that of his.
You know, i always wander why people classify themselves as either conservative/liberal or whatever..I thought the reason why god gave us a brain is so we can decide each issue on its own merit rather than follow blindly what the others said. I’m even more amaze when people who said they voted for Rep/Dem for their entire life. Surely there must be at least one election where your party have disagree with you on certain issue. It seems to me that people follow their party like their favs sport team, it doesn’t matter if its good/bad i will support it. Pretty sure that’s not what election is about.
One final note, don’t you find it ironic that conservative people, church goers like yourself are supporting decisions that is just morally wrong.
Hey John!
1) It’s important to require documentation so that we know what we are dealing with.
2) If folks claim that the Japanese where imprisoned or executed because of waterboarding, they should prove it.
3) I commend former Vice President Cheney for requesting the release of specific documents to confirm that 1,000s of lives where saved because of the use of waterboarding. The Obama administration should release them immediately – by not doing so proves not only Cheney’s claim, but also President Bush and others in his administration.
4) Legality is of utmost importance. Torture has to be defined in order to prosecute against it. It can’t depend on just giving an opinion if something is morally wrong – it would be morally wrong to convict from opinion instead of law.
5) Your liberal, non-church background profoundly effects how you think and act.
6) You claim that waterboarding is morally wrong and that’s fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But that doesn’t mean your opinion is the law.
7) Attorney General Eric Holder failed to prove waterboarding is torture. Could you please define your position as to why waterboarding is morally wrong?
Jim,
Cheney asked for the release of documents he knew were tied up in a lawsuit. He knew they couldn’t be released, that’s why he asked for them.
John McCain and Richard Armitage know and have said that waterboarding is torture and that the US should never engage in such activity – EVER. No matter the “scenario”. “Anyone who knows what waterboarding is could not be unsure. It is a horrible torture technique used by Pol Pot,” – John McCain, October 2007. We train our troops in these techniques to prepare them for being captured by countries who DO engage in these actions because we know there are still governments who torture.
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was captured in May of 2003 and Bush is on record as having said that the LA terror cell and plot was taken care of in 2002. Our country has tried, convicted and executed Japanese soldiers for waterboarding. The information released by our government clearly shows that Bush authorized these and other techniques to be used against prisoners we held. He is clearly in violation of both US and International law by doing that and should be held to account, as should anyone who did this or authorized it. No one should be above the law. Even if they hire the worlds best attorney to tell them they are not breaking it. “But we are not asked to judge the President’s character flaws. We are asked to judge whether the President, who swore an oath to faithfully execute his office, deliberately subverted–for whatever purpose–the rule of law,” – John McCain arguing for the impeachment of Bill Clinton for perjury in a civil suit, February 1999.
The UN convention against torture, signed by Ronald Reagan, requires people who engage or authorize torture, clearly defined as the techniques used by us on our detainees, to be brought before a court and tried as a war criminal. But, why not just follow Bush’s own request: “The United States is committed to the world-wide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example. I call on all governments to join with the United States and the community of law-abiding nations in prohibiting, investigating, and prosecuting all acts of torture and in undertaking to prevent other cruel and unusual punishment. I call on all nations to speak out against torture in all its forms and to make ending torture an essential part of their diplomacy,” – George W. Bush, urging the investigation and prosecution of prisoner abuse and torture under his command, June 26, 2003.
Reagan wrote these words when he signed the UN Convention on Torture “”The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention . It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today. The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called ‘universal jurisdiction.’ Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution.” That convention clearly states ” No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.” Even the Nazis had Doctors present during torture.
Torture is prohibited by federal law in Title 18 of the United States Code, Part I, Chapter 113C, § 2340A. Torture:
(a) Offense.— Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life. (b) Jurisdiction.— There is jurisdiction over the activity prohibited in subsection (a) if—
(1) the alleged offender is a national of the United States; or
(2) the alleged offender is present in the United States, irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged offender.
Torture is defined in Title 18, Part I, Chapter 113C, § 2340. Definitions:
“torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control….
Waterboarding someone 183 times should qualify. And I say these things not to prevent our country from being protected or to protect those who would seek to do us harm. I say these things to protect ourselves from ourselves. We are a nation of laws. The 5th and 8th amendments were created out of experience with a monarch who could do as he pleased outside the law. Even if you argue that these techniques work and have been used to save lives (which they haven’t), those who broke the law should still be held to it.
Hi Jim.
The reason why I think your argument on the legality is lame is because the legality of something can be change quite easily, it is not something that is set in stone. Once a upon a time, I’m sure it would be fine to beat a man up with a whip and burn him with a hot iron bar, that might have fit perfectly within the legal definition of the word “torture” but we changed the law. Why? Its because as a society we like to think that we’ve gone past that middle age mentality. We like to see ourselves as a peace loving, non-violence sophisticated society. I’m sure you frown upon reports of women getting beat up in the Muslim world or getting stone to death for adultery.
You said my opinion of whether something is morally right/wrong does not make the law. You are right in saying that my alone does not make the law but it is the opinion of the society that does!
The question should be ask is as a society, are we comfortable with the actions at hand. Your argument of this technique saving thousands of lives assume that lives would be save every time this technique is used. It might have save some lives that time but do we continue to employ it even if it pushes the boundary of the word torture? There are other techniques that are more harsh but more effective, should we rewrite the legal definition of torture?
By accepting that its fine to do this, we are basically stepping backward, who knows with enough step we can go back to the time when we hang someone for heresy.
Personally, I think this issue is overrated, I’m sure the CIA have employed harsher techniques in the past and will continue to do so in the future. Its a bit naive to think otherwise. However, since its in the public spot light, we must take a stand and said that as a society we do accept this.
The issue that I really have beef with is in the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I would LOVE to see Madcow volunteer to “sit in” with the Navy SEALS, as they ENDURE some “torture” during Hell Week. I think he would come to the same conclusion that the “treatment” these Navy soldiers goes through would be considered “torture” as well…he would be RINGING THE BELL (the bell on the beach that everyone who quits has to ring) after a few hours of “torture”.
Then he would go on TV and say “Wow, I had no idea that what our soldiers go through right here at HOME, at the hands of our own soldiers, is actually TORTURE.”
“We have re-created our enemy’s methodologies in Guantanamo. It will hurt us for decades to come. Decades. Our people will all be subjected to these tactics, because we have authorized them for the world now. How it got to Guantanamo is a crime and somebody needs to figure out who did it, how they did it, who authorized them to do it, and shut it down. Because our servicemen will suffer for years.” – Malcolm Nance, Chief of Training, US Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE) School (1997-2001).
Well maybe they’ll quit cutting off the heads of ones who are captured now, and just waterboard them. They will be wet and startled but at least they will still have a head.
ah, snark in the face of reason and experience. Perfect. So, by this logic, as long as we’re not AS BAD as the enemy, we’re OK. That’s where the bar gets set? There’s only multiple international agreements and federal laws that contradict that thought. Meh. We might be attacked!! Ahhhh! Whatever it takes! Whatever it takes! Terrorist-1 You-0
Any nation that captures a civilian-clothed terrorist (or “insurgent”) on the field of battle, and does not summarily execute that terrorist (or “insurgent”) is, in light of world history and convention, an extremely rare nation.
Any nation that holds a terrorist (or “insurgent”) whom holds possible knowledge of a future terrorist (or “insurgent”) attack, and extracts such knowledge while leaving said terrorist (or “insurgent”) intact, is an extremely rare nation. May be a nation that’s never before existed in world history. May be a nation that walks on water, so-to-speak, -in light of world history…
My point is, my fellow thinkers, is that America is a very fine and rare notion that managed to forcefully born itself despite history and is today leading the world in all ways, including the treatment of high-value irregulars.
We can be very proud to be in this era and American. We can now realize we’ve graduated to a higher plane. But also, do realize, the strength that allowed such magnanimous behavior toward the “irregular” is tenuous. What was so painfully achieved in order to today offer magnanimous behavior to terrorists is finite. America has a lifespan that you and I determine. Will it be another several hundred years, or just till we judge ourselves unfit based on “waterboarding”? And then ask who will lead if we’re unfit? Look around.. See another ‘America’??
we’re rare BECAUSE we are a nation of laws, not in spite of them.
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[...] Exposed” — Pelosi on waterboarding Jim Blazsik: Nancy Pelosi and those “Lyin’ Eyes” and Actually, Mancow proves that waterboarding ISN’T torture Back Porch FanHouse: Did Nancy Pelosi Know About Manny’s Drug Use? Ernie Mannix, Big Hollywood: [...]